Training for Vasaloppet 2024 - doubts

[DPoleIT]

Hello to all!

Sorry but I don't speak Swedish but I would like to learn from the best (amateurs)!

I started xc skiing in winter 2021 after a life of sports.

I participate in some xc races, last year in Marcialonga i finished in 4h57 because someone stepped on my right ski detaching my binding so i lost 20/25 mins.

Now i'm currently training for Diagonela, Marcialonga and Vasaloppet '24.

Last year i rode on rollerskis (almost 4's) and skis for 359 hrs but very few long workouts (more than 2h30).

Now i'm riding again on 4's (where i live in Italy, it is mostly flat) 5 times a weeks, averaging 8-9hrs per week.

My goals for marcialonga and vasa are respectively sub 4h and sub 5h.

In your opinion, should I replace 1 rollerski session with 2 strength sessions at gym (i do some strength at home, like core and dips) or should i keep my schedule?

Thanks!

 

p.s. feel free to reply in Swedish, i will use google translate

[LFN]

The the number of hours is relevant, but even more important is how you use them. What do you do during those hours? Is it mostly the same speed and distance or do you mix it up with intervalls and a variety of paces? 

 

[DPoleIT]

Spring, summer and early fall mostly distance and calm/medium speed.

November and december, due to heavy job hours, I will shift to more intensity and no more than 1h30 workout.

Unfotunately, I will ski from Christmas…

[DPoleIT]

I have modified the training schedule for the past 2 months, including 2 easy running for about 30-45 minutes but retaining 5 rollerskis sessions.

On 9th august I did the longest DP session of 70km on 4s (strava: https://www.strava.com/activities/9613938623).

Today I started to incorporating rollerski intervals with 6x7 min, averaging 20/21 km/h, again on 4s. Probably I will do once per week. 

I was thinking about long distance session, should I go for 4+ hrs but calm or keep them around 3hrs and do them more structured (like 2h calm and 1h hard or something like that)?

Thanks 

 

[MSO]

When you have invested 3hrs in a session, I would use that to try to push it in bursts towards the end. Like all out fot 10-20s x5 or something like that. Not in a way that you really wear out to the bone, but just using the opportunity to try producing speed when you are tired. One of the main challenges in long distance skiing is to be able to produce speed and keep the technique decent when you wear down. 

After 3-4 roller ski sessions per week I would add one full body strength training session before adding more roller skiing. To try to avoid injuries and getting too physically specialized or "narrow". 

[DPoleIT]

Ok, so better speed than threshold towards the end?

I don’t like going to the gym, maybe at home? Pull ups and dips?

Today I did mega uphill session, 32km and 1200m elevation gain with 3s to strengthen the core!

[Volevodin]

Finns det ingen översättningsfunktion på forumet för oss som inte är så bra på engelska ?

[DPoleIT]

Volevodin write in Swedish, I will use google translate.

[Vasa]

19 minutes ago, Volevodin said:

Finns det ingen översättningsfunktion på forumet för oss som inte är så bra på engelska ?

I t.ex Chrome så kan man högerklicka och välja "översätt till svenska". 

[Thorrez]

Hi DPoleIT,

The 3+ hours session with a long hard finish is very popular among the pros today:

http://www.157training.com/blogg/june-28th-2017

https://erikwickstrom.se/2018/08/16/det-harda-langpasset/

As you can see you can make it more complicated, but the principle is the same. The problem is it is really hard, so it might both physical och mentally drain you. I checked your Strava and if you keep this up you should achieve your goals (if slow conditions anywhere close to normal) and I think you should have no problem doing this session regularly.

For me (best Vasa 5:03, Marcialonga 4:16) the 5+ hour sessions (break for a quick lunch is ok) is what I feel helped me the most. On snow Toblach, going toward Corona, is awesome for this with enough slope uphill to make you work, but not change technic, and downhill, you get a little help but cannot really rest. I'm not the faster starter in races, but my third hour pace is usually almost the same as my second and a lot of the competitors drop off a lot more. 

If course this is not proof, but it works for me.

[DPoleIT]

28 minutes ago, Thorrez said:

Hi DPoleIT,

The 3+ hours session with a long hard finish is very popular among the pros today:

http://www.157training.com/blogg/june-28th-2017

https://erikwickstrom.se/2018/08/16/det-harda-langpasset/

As you can see you can make it more complicated, but the principle is the same. The problem is it is really hard, so it might both physical och mentally drain you. I checked your Strava and if you keep this up you should achieve your goals (if slow conditions anywhere close to normal) and I think you should have no problem doing this session regularly.

For me (best Vasa 5:03, Marcialonga 4:16) the 5+ hour sessions (break for a quick lunch is ok) is what I feel helped me the most. On snow Toblach, going toward Corona, is awesome for this with enough slope uphill to make you work, but not change technic, and downhill, you get a little help but cannot really rest. I'm not the faster starter in races, but my third hour pace is usually almost the same as my second and a lot of the competitors drop off a lot more. 

If course this is not proof, but it works for me.

thanks thorrez.

5+ hours seems a lot, because unlike you swedishs, i must do long workouts on small loops with traffic and I also use almost exclusively 4s. I'm sure it could work also for me, maybe with good weather and chill temperatures i can work up to that target.

I'm finding more interesting, amateur side, wickstrom workout more than 157 one because, i think, beside elites, amateurs will experience some sort of queue at the start.

Also 157 w/o is not feasible for me due to the place where I workout.

So the final idea is to drop a separated intervals w/o and include that into the long run, keeping 4/5 rollerski sessions per week plus 2/3 running.

I have noticed, since I started 2 months ago, those easy running sessions helps me a lot in lowering heart rate also in rollerski sessions and I can work for longer.

 

[DPoleIT]

What about replacing long distance session with 4s with 3s? I’m thinking that it could be beneficial on technique without losing the muscular side. Of course I will use 4s on other session (4 x week for about 1.30 hour).

thougths?

[MSO]

I think it will be beneficial to lower the resistance in longer distances, yes. In the third hour I see great benefits of focusing on speed and technique in the last couple of km and if wheels are too slow I kind of think that you are too worn down to sort it out in the way that I find "optimal". Given our rather limited capacity here. I am as well only a low 5h skier in my best times. Typically starting i led 3. 

I dont use 4's myself since I rather use terrain for resistance than slow wheels. But I assume that they are pretty slow. 

In general btw, the adaption to time - meaning how long time one can ski (rather hard) before really hitting the wall - seems pretty quick. For me I see a difference after just one really long session. That implies that it can be beneficial to add just one or a few really long sessions say a month to 3 weeks before race day even if you dont have time or possibility to repeatedly do it during the training season. 

[DPoleIT]

Purely on speed, between 3s and 4s there is 1/1,5km per hr but also the form is a bit different.

Today was a long session on 3s

1h27 warm up

6x10min at threshold rec 2’30

cool down 41min with 10 impulses.

Finished with 61.9km at 18,5km avg.

https://strava.app.link/qPJQEn3yfDb
 

Unfortunately, on December, I will work 10hrs no day off till 24th, so it will be a maintenance/intensity month with session no longer than 1h30.

So I try to do a long distance session everyweek.

From 24th December I will substitute 2 rollerski session with real skiing and they will be long.

[MSO]

Really impressive to produce that speed for 6x10min with 3's after 25k at about 3:25 pace!

I am pretty far from sorting that out. 

[DPoleIT]

I don’t know if it counts but I use only free rotating wheels, no backstop.

After you use 4s 5 times a week, even on long runs, 3s seems like 2s 😅.

 I’m thinking to switch to 5s on every day sessions and keep 3s for long.

Maybe next season.

[MSO]

If you use any wheels 5 times a week, 3s tend to feel like 2s after a while.... 😏

[DPoleIT]

Yeah 3s tends to level a bit, they are similar in feeling to 2s.

4s never lose that drag like feel.

today long session was with 4s.

First half easy @ 3’36

second half hard @ 3’07

total 51,34km

https://strava.app.link/KQPR6rpBrDb